Cindy Yang: Host of Taiwanren

Cindy Yang was born in Taipei and immigrated to Toronto as a child. For years, she wanted to feel more connected to her Taiwanese roots, but wasn’t sure how. During COVID-19, Cindy was moved by the power of ordinary people and felt emboldened to share stories from the Taiwanese community. She created Taiwanren - a podcast featuring inspirational stories from Taiwanese innovators and advocates.

I spoke with Cindy about her immigration story, how Taiwanren has deepened her connection to Taiwan, and how she learned to make decisions for herself - even when the decisions go against what other people think is best.

Photo courtesy of Cindy Yang

Rebecca: Can you start by telling me about how you and your family immigrated to Toronto? 

Cindy: I was born in Tianmu, a neighborhood of Taipei. When I was pretty young, a lot of Taiwanese families emigrated from Taiwan to places all over the world, especially the US and Canada. Almost all of my extended family moved to the US, and my family moved to Toronto. 

Many local Taiwanese hold this belief that there are more opportunities beyond Taiwan. When I'm back in Taiwan, I'm a bit envious of people who got to stay there. They seem so sure of themselves and connected to who they are. It’s interesting though, because I think they’re a bit envious of me and the life that I’ve been able to live in Toronto. I'm starting to understand more about this mutual appreciation.

Rebecca: Can you tell me more about your upbringing and adjustment to Toronto? 

Cindy: I was in grade school when we moved. It was hard for me to adjust in the beginning, because my mom was my biggest supporter but her English wasn't very good. We didn’t understand how school in Canada really worked. I pretty much failed my first couple of years of school here, because we didn't understand how to do homework. 

I was raised in the Catholic system, and there were almost no other Taiwanese people around. At the time, there was a big Hong Kong immigration wave. My family had to learn to survive with Cantonese. The kids from Hong Kong would not play with me, because I didn't know Cantonese. I slowly learned Cantonese through watching TV, so I could fit in with them. Sometimes it would take my family a while to get served in Chinese restaurants, because the immigrants from Hong Kong didn’t know how to communicate with us. They would just put us in the back of a restaurant. Those experiences made me feel like I didn’t belong with a certain Asian group.

Once I adjusted to Canada however, race wasn't a critical part of my identity until high school. At that point, race suddenly became a new filter for friendships and social dynamics, and people started to rearrange their social circles based on race. There were people I was best friends with in the eighth grade, and then all of a sudden we wouldn’t be friends anymore. 

A part of me rejected that, and that's partly why I just stopped speaking Mandarin. I stopped wanting to know about my heritage, and I saw myself more as Canadian. In university though, I started to revisit who I was through Chinese dramas and Chinese music. 

There was always this hole in my heart where I felt like I didn’t know enough about being Asian. To remedy that, I took advantage of the first opportunity I got to live in Asia. When I was 20, I participated in an exchange program to Singapore and lived in Asia for a year. 

I bought a one way ticket to Shanghai for a summer internship, and I quickly learned that I had romanticized the idea of living in Asia. I learned the harsh reality that when you’re Asian and working in Asia, you don't make a lot of money. I barely saw the sun, because I had to get up at 6am to beat the morning rush, and then I would get home at 7pm. I quit a month in, and I backpacked across China to enjoy my summer and get to know myself instead.

After I returned from Asia, my identity took a backseat again. It wasn’t until recently that I started thinking more about being Taiwanese and what I could do for the community. 

Rebecca: How did your parents make the decision to move to Toronto instead of a different city? 

Cindy: It boiled down to timing and luck; someone had told them that Toronto was a great city, so they visited for three days. They saw a house they liked and made an impulse buy. 

Toronto does happen to be an amazing, multicultural, and progressive city. We probably should have gone to Vancouver, but they had a bad first experience there. For them, it was all about first impressions, and once we immigrated, they understood more about the choice that they had made, and dealt with it. 

That's one incredible thing about immigrants - whatever the circumstances are, you learn to adapt, make sacrifices for your family, and get through it. I didn’t always realize it, but I watched my parents grow up. My mom was around the same age that I am now when she immigrated. I think about how scary it would be for me to move to a country where I wasn’t fluent in the language, had young kids, and had to give up my career. My parents were so brave for immigrating. 

Rebecca: Can you tell me about how you started Taiwanren? 

Cindy: I had been following the Hong Kong protests that started a couple years ago, because I have a lot of friends from there and I’ve always felt connected to Hong Kong. I felt really helpless and worried that what I was seeing could happen to Taiwan, and I started having anxiety in general. 

During Black Lives Matter, I was inspired by the power of everyday people. For example, someone might realize that volunteers needed lunch and then they’d go set up a lunch service. I saw that regular people can do incredible things, and it empowered me. Even though I don’t know anyone in Taiwan except for my family and I’m so far away physically, I figured maybe I could help.

I worked as a consultant previously and I have a business background, so initially I reached out to companies in Taiwan to pitch them business ideas for free. I thought I could help the economy that way. But I wouldn’t recommend that approach - these companies didn’t want a random person giving them advice.

People did respond to me though, and I loved hearing their stories. I wanted more of these stories to get out, especially because Taiwan has so many entrepreneurial minds. I wanted to showcase this entrepreneurial spirit, so my desire changed from wanting to help companies to wanting to highlight people and what they've been doing for either Taiwan or themselves.

In the beginning, it was hard because I didn't really have credentials or know what I was doing. I'm still learning now, but Taiwanren gained traction and momentum pretty quickly. I started in October 2020, and by December I had 5000 followers on Instagram. I wanted to take advantage of that, so I took two months off work and flew to Taiwan to see what I could do if I was on the ground. It turns out, I could do a lot more once I was there. This was the first time I experienced 熱情, or the passion of the Taiwanese people. If I met one person, they would offer to help and invite me to parties or connect me to three more people. It was never-ending and I had to set boundaries and pace myself so I wouldn’t get too burnt out. That changed my view of my role in this community that I've always wanted to be close to, and I got to experience the community itself and explore what it means to be Taiwanese. 

After I came back to Toronto, I couldn’t stop thinking about my time in Taiwan, and I started realizing that I don't need to live my life a certain way. Sometimes you need to respond to what is working in your life, so I decided to take a leap of faith. I recently moved to Taiwan to see how far I can take Taiwanren and start my own business

Rebecca: How did that December visit to Taiwan compare to the visits you made when you were younger? 

Cindy: When I was younger and visited Taiwan, I only hung out with my family. I always felt like I was on vacation, and I never connected with the community. If your main reason for going back to your homeland is to spend time with family and do some tourism, you'll always see your homeland from an outsider's perspective. It's not a criticism, but it is something you have to recognize. 

I really wanted to change that, and I was able to accomplish much more in my last visit. It was a huge change once I actually knew people there and saw what it was like to live there. Working on Taiwanren helped me be more rooted to Taiwan, find like-minded people, and be more integrated in the community. I started to explore different parts of the city and do activities beyond going to the mall or tourist destinations. I started to go places and do activities that were part of everyday life for locals and get a glimpse of what it would be like to live there on a more permanent basis. I began forming a network beyond my relatives. 

One of the biggest surprises for me is that the majority (a little less than two-thirds) of Taiwanren’s listeners are coming from Taiwan, even though my podcast is completely in English. I’m trying to better understand what their interests are and how I can help the local Taiwanese now that I’m in Taiwan. 

Rebecca: Can you share more about the business that you’re starting? 

Cindy: I work in education, and as an Asian, 1.5 generation immigrant, I've always done what my parents wanted me to do. They wanted me to study business at a certain university, because it was one of the best in Canada. They picked the company I worked at, because of its reputation. I don’t think I made a decision for myself until I was 26.

When I was 26, I made a career shift into education and finally started doing what I like.  Everybody around me was getting an MBA, but I refused to do that. I got a master's in education instead. Now, going from being a salaried person to starting my own business is another example of finding the courage to live for myself. My family would prefer for me to have a “real job,” especially because it seems like my career is really progressing now. At my last company, I was a director and managed a team of six people. Especially for an Asian woman, it seems like these are great things. But sometimes you have to answer to yourself.

The funny thing is that with these decisions that I make, the first thing I worry about is what my parents will say. I'm so scared of my parents’ expectations, but at the end of the day, people adjust so quickly. Ultimately, my parents were happy for me, because I was happy. 

I'm going to work on modern career planning for high school students and students graduating from university. I feel like I've come full circle, because this is based on my own experiences. The world is changing and the jobs that were available when we were 18 are so different from what's available now. When I was 18, there was no concept of “product manager” or “growth.” I'm trying to create a service for high school students and university grads, so they have a flexible toolkit and can make the right decisions for this constantly changing environment. I want them to have an inner compass that helps them lead fulfilling lives through their careers.

Rebecca: That’s awesome and I’m really excited to see where it goes! Going back to your podcasts, what are some of the challenges you’ve experienced? 

Cindy: The main challenges have been building self confidence, building expertise quickly, and wanting to exceed expectations. In the beginning, I had so much self doubt, but it’s gone away now. The first doubt was whether anyone would listen to the Taiwanren. People around me wanted to know if I was focusing on a certain group of Taiwanese people, such as entrepreneurs. I didn't want to make the focus narrow, because the diversity of stories makes the podcast rich. I didn't know whether I would have an audience, but I was doing it for my own learning anyway. 

I had to learn a lot in the beginning. I don’t have a journalism background, so I had to learn how to help control the story. When you interview someone with a strong personality, they can easily control a narrative for you and you can get lost in it. You have to ensure they share their experiences in an effective way that the audience can identify with, and you might have to draw that out of your interviewee. 

The hardest part with interviews is that you can't redo them. I've actually asked some of my interviewees to re-record after the first listen. Later on, I switched my strategy and started doing prep interviews with my interviewees. I ask them how they might answer a certain question or if I should ask something in a different way, depending on what I want to draw out of their story.

When I went to Taiwan, I had challenges recording in person. In Canada, I recorded everything virtually, which was easier. In Taiwan, there was a lot more variability in background noise and the set up. I bought a heavy microphone set with mixers that I carried around with me everywhere, but there were still some issues. During one of my interviews, we left the window open, and didn’t think that would be a big deal. But in the recording, there was so much noise that it made the sound engineer’s job very difficult. 

Maybe it’s the Asian in me, but I perpetually want to exceed expectations. It’s difficult because as you build an audience, the guest list starts to become more significant. There are some people I  want to promote on my podcast, because they're smaller or simply because I find them interesting. For instance, I want to talk about a woman who gave up her own career to run her family's soy milk business, because she wants to help preserve the agricultural industry in Taiwan. I don't want to only have tech entrepreneurs. I’m trying to keep the balance and remind myself why I started Taiwanren in the first place. 

Rebecca: What have been some of the most rewarding parts of working on Taiwanren?

Cindy: It’s great being able to hang out with people like Audrey Tang, but beyond that, I get connected with people who are similar to me. Our friendship is rooted in our passion for projects we’re working on, and I get so inspired by having these creative friends. A lot of people hang out with people in their age group or similar social background, but Taiwanren has helped me break through some of those barriers. Now I have friends in their mid 40s or early 50s, and they have so much to teach me. For instance, this month I am going on a trip with one of the people I've interviewed to explore a cacao farm. That's not an opportunity I would normally receive. 

Rebecca: What’s your vision for Taiwanren? 

Cindy: My original vision was to help people learn and be inspired by Taiwanese initiatives. In my family at least, the dialogue has been that Taiwan's glory is a thing of the past and people should go to the US for a better life. I want to change that narrative, and help people see all the great things happening in Taiwan and be proud to be Tawaiwanese. 

Longer term, I would love to help bring awareness to more organizations. In the spring, we’re working with a partner to sell merch, and there will be messages such as “Keep Taiwan Free.” Through these kinds of extended partnerships, I'm working on new ways to get more stories out.